tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post1812523432810398496..comments2024-01-04T09:04:42.121+00:00Comments on James Strachan's Blog: How Sun could fix Swing and promote innovation and unification in the UI spaceJames Strachanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-39322321888776625682010-01-02T23:31:40.796+00:002010-01-02T23:31:40.796+00:00Please Help today is a last day to renew this doma...Please Help today is a last day to renew this domain help me out i am ready to pay.<br /><br />ThanksFahadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02787003420526776961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-47930735545818163072010-01-02T23:30:55.603+00:002010-01-02T23:30:55.603+00:00Hi,
I am ready to pay $1,000 USD for this domain...Hi,<br /> <br />I am ready to pay $1,000 USD for this domain dom4j.org please renew it for me. I will pay you advance.. This is not a spam email please help me i need this domain.<br /> <br />I can pay money advance.<br /> <br />Thanks<br />FahadFahadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02787003420526776961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-61597175119428615472009-11-19T09:34:50.885+00:002009-11-19T09:34:50.885+00:00@Maurits there's plenty of open source pure Ja...@Maurits there's plenty of open source pure Java web server & servlet engines available, so its trivial to embed a full web app inside any Java applicationJames Strachanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-32395566810484472052009-11-18T22:23:28.759+00:002009-11-18T22:23:28.759+00:00Maybe we should include not only webkit but also a...Maybe we should include not only webkit but also apache. I think a cross-platform VM that lets you package a web app as desktop app might win the battle..Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12216152140104135743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-9648949493393218952009-02-04T20:17:00.000+00:002009-02-04T20:17:00.000+00:00FYI, here is a recent announcement of an Java-embe...FYI, here is a recent announcement of an Java-embeddable browser component based on Google Chrome:<BR/><BR/>http://www.jroller.com/myeclipseblog/entry/chromiusBoris Bokowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-2334947126488731572009-02-04T15:53:00.000+00:002009-02-04T15:53:00.000+00:00Your proposition sounds like very close to persona...Your proposition sounds like very close to personal ideas and a recent post of mine : <A HREF="http://www.jroller.com/dmdevito/entry/swing_browsers_other_interesting_dsl" REL="nofollow">Swing browsers - other interesting DSL Swing projects to follow</A> (and related indirectly also to <A HREF="http://www.jroller.com/dmdevito/entry/proposing_a_swing_dsl_from" REL="nofollow">Proposing a Swing DSL from JavaFX ?</A>).<BR/><BR/>What I call "Swing browser" is somewhat: UI declarative programming + Swing components + XHTML-or-specific DSL for composition, all the stuff being more or less similar to a web browser, but with Swing underneath.<BR/><BR/>The more polished and *running/living* example/implementation of such Swing browser is Sage browser from Don DeCoteau (see my post for other examples, but not as polished/finished as Sage browser unfortunately).<BR/><BR/>I have also written in 2006 about <A HREF="http://www.jroller.com/dmdevito/entry/revisiting_xhtml_as_a_base" REL="nofollow">Revisiting XHTML as a base (?) for XUL-like programming</A>: "XHTML may simplify Java client development as XHTML programming model is common (similar to HTML) and because XHTML Java support and use are growing". This being said, while Java could leverage XHTML for gluing/composing components, I think XHTML might be adapted if, for example, some want to continue to use Swing layout managers, but on XHTML components. <BR/><BR/>Well, I hope JWebPane is going to make it appear at last, because I am also interested into using quite similar technologies for web <I>and</I> desktop development.Dominique De Vitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03790530434856406116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-81323743816652212402009-02-02T14:42:00.000+00:002009-02-02T14:42:00.000+00:00Developer DudeMost of the pain of web applications...Developer Dude<BR/><BR/>Most of the pain of web applications IMHO is dealing with a zillion different old browsers and bugs. However if the JDK came with a recent WebKit - which works the same on Windows, OS X and Linux then it'll be just as cross platform as working with Swing right?<BR/><BR/>BTW I'm not advocating we use web frameworks instead of Swing; I'm advocating we build a neat API - at least as good as Swing and hopefully better - which underneath can reuse the *good* stuff from WebKit and get a best of both worlds. Essentially combining the best bits of Swing and WebKit so users have the simple, productive programming model while being able to use HTML markup, CSS and standards when and where applicable etc.<BR/><BR/>If folks have specific use cases for something like MigLayout - then hey use it. I'm not advocating scrapping Swing - more enhancing it to allow WebKit / HTML / CSS / DOM / JS to be used as and when developers choose to.James Strachanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-50352851872981918802009-02-02T07:11:00.000+00:002009-02-02T07:11:00.000+00:00I have to disagree.At least with Swing I know that...I have to disagree.<BR/><BR/>At least with Swing I know that what 99.9% of what I write will work on the three main platforms I develop for (Windows, Linux, OSX) and it will work the same.<BR/><BR/>I cannot come close to saying the same for any web client regardless of what I use (GWT, whatever). GWT is a big improvement, but mostly in the fact that much of the time I can work in Java in hosted mode - not that HTML/JS/CSS is better than Swing - it isn't.<BR/><BR/>I have developed in both Swing and for web clients (using GWT, or JSP, or Tapestry) and I am several times more productive and much more robust when I use Swing than any web client framework.<BR/><BR/>That isn't to say that Swing (or SWT for that matter) is the answer for all apps or clients, it isn't, just that when it is the answer I much prefer it over anything else. Sure it can use improvement and cleanup, but I find it much more preferable than the alternatives and there are many third party add-ons (layout managers for example) that greatly improve it.Developer Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01475883843077887466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-17289151950574213252009-01-31T22:51:00.000+00:002009-01-31T22:51:00.000+00:00The idea is great in principle, but HTML is not th...The idea is great in principle, but HTML is not there... yet! Layout with HTML is incredibly painful (I love how JGoodies and MigLayout do it), it is practically impossible to do well for complex applications [1]. But that will change before long and then Java needs to have a plan. Browsers are going to become a really cool programming environment in the future (see Palm Pre, Google Gears, client-side SQL, etc.). And being able to use Java as the J in Ajax would be cool, because then one could switch between Desktop app and web app easily. Or just always use a web (or web-like) environment for deployment.<BR/><BR/>[1] <A HREF="http://2ality.blogspot.com/2008/12/future-of-ajax.html" REL="nofollow">2ality.blogspot.com/2008/12/future-of-ajax.html</A>rauschmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05161748944927386101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-53070619366959274112009-01-31T12:33:00.000+00:002009-01-31T12:33:00.000+00:00HTML/CSS for layout? That's insane.MigLayout beats...HTML/CSS for layout? That's insane.<BR/><BR/>MigLayout beats HTML/CSS for layout management by a factor of 1000.Jacek Furmankiewiczhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05579810225263887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-49156816055809609902009-01-31T10:01:00.000+00:002009-01-31T10:01:00.000+00:00Thanks for the correction Oliver; I guess I meant ...Thanks for the correction Oliver; I guess I meant Apple didn't choose Gecko :)James Strachanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-1863098430758834792009-01-31T05:11:00.000+00:002009-01-31T05:11:00.000+00:00Apple didn't "choose" WebKit for Safari -- Apple w...Apple didn't "choose" WebKit for Safari -- Apple wrote it, starting from KHTML as a base (5 or 6 years ago), more or less all of webkit is written *by* Apple nowadays.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-82158391462740936852009-01-31T00:52:00.000+00:002009-01-31T00:52:00.000+00:00Thanks Mario! Yeah I spotted JWebPane after I post...Thanks Mario! Yeah I spotted JWebPane after I posted the first version of this post - I updated the last section on JWebPane. <BR/><BR/>Though note still its not been released in any alpha/beta form despite being announced 7-8 months ago. I've got my fingers crossed Sun deliver it!James Strachanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-69440176295450113682009-01-30T23:33:00.000+00:002009-01-30T23:33:00.000+00:00Jessta I'm keen to know which layout manager you'v...Jessta I'm keen to know which layout manager you've been using for Swing that can layout widgets much better than HTML and CSSJames Strachanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-54882991800301178112009-01-30T23:20:00.000+00:002009-01-30T23:20:00.000+00:00" The web browser is the best layout manager we ha..." The web browser is the best layout manager we have - and HTML/CSS is the best standard for laying out widgets." <BR/>ummm...HTML/CSS is terrible for UI. It's a bunch of nasty hacks to get a document layout format to work for proper user interfaces.<BR/>This web app stuff is getting out of hand.Jesstahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06837651109419168637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-63996817095381423512009-01-30T22:33:00.000+00:002009-01-30T22:33:00.000+00:00blackdog: totally agreed!Boris: have you taken a l...blackdog: totally agreed!<BR/><BR/>Boris: have you taken a look at the Java API for interacting with WebKit in Android by any chance? I'm wondering if we can try get the Java-browser APIs in some kind of sync so we could maybe try share a common API to interacting with the browser, the DOM and JS?<BR/><BR/>e.g. have a look at the comment by pgmglv in the comments here...<BR/><BR/>http://weblogs.java.net/blog/ixmal/archive/2008/06/using_jwebpane_1.html<BR/><BR/>I guess the API of JWebPane is totally mute until something is actually released publicly :)James Strachanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-71088293085091778192009-01-30T20:36:00.000+00:002009-01-30T20:36:00.000+00:00I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts and part...I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts and particularly this being more important than JavaFX. Instantly, Sun will have thousands more developers developing for the JVM, instead of trying to convince them that somehow JavaFX is better. The fact is, when you add jQuery (or alternative) over the DOM it's really quite pleasant to work with and if Sun could team up with this initiative for a common JS server side API (http://groups.google.com/group/serverjs) - really would be a nice way to do desktop apps apps.<BR/><BR/>At least the work is in progress, this was the last info I saw on it, http://weblogs.java.net/blog/alex2d/archive/2008/12/jwebpane_projec.html<BR/><BR/>bdblackdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09002030004126444817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-59031527759513494952009-01-30T15:40:00.000+00:002009-01-30T15:40:00.000+00:00Thanks for the heads up Boris! Yeah I was aware SW...Thanks for the heads up Boris! Yeah I was aware SWT/JFace can host a browser - and it can host native COM components and the like which is great.<BR/><BR/>My post was really about what should be in the JVM as standard; that Swing developers can use (or SWT for that matter) without having to add platform specific libraries to your PATH to work etc.<BR/><BR/>I'll look out for the slides of your talk though; I'm hoping the meme of using WebKit/Gecko as the main layout/rendering component in rich UIs on the Java platform can spread - and maybe even share the same common API to interact with the browserJames Strachanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12591119339035350067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-637417304187784899.post-48371176353623111822009-01-30T15:17:00.000+00:002009-01-30T15:17:00.000+00:00Hi James,Yes, what you describe is indeed very int...Hi James,<BR/><BR/>Yes, what you describe is indeed very interesting. And the technology is available today!<BR/><BR/>SWT has had a Browser control for quite some time, and with a bit of extra install overhead, you can get an embedded Firefox on all supported platforms. Also, as of 3.5 M4, SWT has pretty good API for JavaScript<->Java communication, see the New&Noteworthy at: http://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops/S-3.5M4-200812111908/eclipse-news-M4.html<BR/><BR/>We have explored the area of how best to embed existing web UIs in an application like Eclipse, with great success. I will be talking about this at EclipseCon in March: http://www.eclipsecon.org/2009/sessions?id=636Boris Bokowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.com